Curse

Darksun · Jun 12, 2008, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Before I go any further, is this in respect to having monsters having higher levels than the players?

LOL?? No.. I mean the unlimited # of minions you could have. The need to have "reset" points to move stats around. Monsters sitting in, or running from (depending on what you like) aoe, The fact that favor was almost always in 1 continent (the current set up is meh, but the first was still unbalanced as anything) the amount of storage, I suppose you could put Monster level but I think it's good to have (at least some) over leveled mobs... there are lots of things that have been fixed or bettered over time or just sucked at the beginning and there are things that got worse. The 'sky is falling' attitude is disingenuous.

Lopezus · Jun 12, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Part of the conflict is that other choices have already been suggested, and a lot of those alternatives involved expanding PvE with little conflict on PvP. So no, it wasn't that ANet had any alternatives. It was that they thought that they would be able to provide so much and be able to balance it all. Unfortunately, things didn't turn out as planned.

and i think it would only provide a little different path, they turned zig when can turn zag but it would arise another set of issues so they would turn zag to balance the zig and in the end we will be in the same place we are now.

Quote:

How is that? GW was selling well over four million copies when things started to hit the fan.

Read Avarre post and espiecially his WoC quoting: path was set a lot earlier then 4 milion copies milestone.

Bryant Again · Jun 12, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

LOL?? No.. I mean the unlimited # of minions you could have. The need to have "reset" points to move stats around. Monsters sitting in, or running from (depending on what you like) aoe, The fact that favor was almost always in 1 continent (the current set up is meh, but the first was still unbalanced as anything) the amount of storage, I suppose you could put Monster level but I think it's good to have (at least some) over leveled mobs... there are lots of things that have been fixed or bettered over time or just sucked at the beginning and there are things that got worse. The 'sky is falling' attitude is disingenuous.

I'm confused. Most of those things were changed for the better, but they're also not concerning the balance of the PvE game. This is about one of the more drastic of changes that became implemented in PvE: PvE skills and the titles that affected them, when GW truly seperated PvE from it's core mantra.

This isn't about us "wanting to go back to the Prophecy days", it's more about wanting the core of the PvE game to remain the same. Other things have come and gone, but none as drastic as what occurred with NF and later GW:EN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

and i think it would only provide a little different path, they turned zig when can turn zag but it would arise another set of issues so they would turn zag to balance the zig and in the end we will be in the same place we are now.

We never know what the "other set of issues" will be. But I know one thing for certain: there were other paths to please the PvE crowd, and adding more classes would further stress the PvP game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

Read Avarre post and espiecially his WoC quoting: path was set a lot earlier then 4 milion copies milestone.

Thanks. I wasn't sure if it was the 3 million or 4 million when things went down hill, but that still doesn't toss down the point.

DreamWind · Jun 12, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Let me state a problem.

Let's make this simple. There are a lot of players who believe that the game changed over the years. They believe:

Old Guild Wars = "good"
New Guild Wars = "bad"

Obviously it is more complicated than that, but lets keep it simple for purposes of the problem.

So saying that is true, only one of two situations is possible for Guild Wars 2:

1. Guild Wars 2 starts off "bad" because Anet wanted the franchise to go that direction.

2. Guild Wars 2 starts off "good" but changes to "bad" because Anet has a history of doing that (called Guild Wars 1).

I see no other option at the moment.

Deleet · Jun 12, 2008, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I couldn't be bothered to read the thread. Did any ANet employee answer yet? Just send me a PM with the answer. Thanks.

Excellent job with the post, Avarre!

Darksun · Jun 12, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'm confused. Most of those things were changed for the better, but they're also not concerning the balance of the PvE game. This is about one of the more drastic of changes that became implemented in PvE: PvE skills and the titles that affected them, when GW truly seperated PvE from it's core mantra.

Oh I see.. having 18 minions, unlimited energy from soul reaping, never being able to go to the Underworld, Having aoe always be effective on an enemy too stupid to move, being unable to change your build to a better one because you had to grind your "reset points" back up, and grinding your way through infusion 5 times for 1 set, none of that is PvE imbalance? Sorry, if that's not imbalance, then Ursan (something that isn't even that fun) isn't imbalance either. I think they are both problems, but nothing game-shattering.
I think the over-10 minions is worse than Ursan.

Bryant Again · Jun 12, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Oh I see.. having 18 minions, unlimited energy from soul reaping, never being able to go to the Underworld, Having aoe always be effective on an enemy too stupid to move, being unable to change your build to a better one because you had to grind your "reset points" back up, and grinding your way through infusion 5 times for 1 set, none of that is PvE imbalance?

Have those problems been addressed? I guess I should change my wording to "current pve balance..."

But now that's bringing up more of a point: If ANet cared so heavily about PvE balance in the past, why not now?

Crom The Pale · Jun 12, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Let me state a problem.

Let's make this simple. There are a lot of players who believe that the game changed over the years. They believe:

Old Guild Wars = "good"
New Guild Wars = "bad"

Obviously it is more complicated than that, but lets keep it simple for purposes of the problem.

So saying that is true, only one of two situations is possible for Guild Wars 2:

1. Guild Wars 2 starts off "bad" because Anet wanted the franchise to go that direction.

2. Guild Wars 2 starts off "good" but changes to "bad" because Anet has a history of doing that (called Guild Wars 1).

I see no other option at the moment.

Its not so much that "old" GW was better than the "new" GW.

Some changes were made, new things introduced, and content altered that effected the way some people play the game. For some it has improved but for others its gone downhill.

Anet is, and always has been, trying to please everyone. While some think this is a lossing cause I believe its the correct aproach to creating a game that will have both a long life and serve as a model for future games.

GuildWars2 will NOT be a carbon copy of GW with a few tweeks, it will most certainly have a very different feel to it but will retain some aspects that are indespencible to the franchise.

New players will not miss any of the "old" features that were removed or changed in GW and if "old" players are upset at the direction the game is taking they have already gotten a great deal out of it for the money they paid.

Darksun · Jun 12, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Have those problems been addressed? I guess I should change my wording to "current pve balance..."

Of course. My point is that I think things have fluctuated throughout the growth of the game, and this mystical time when GW "died" is another point in the fluctuation, not an end all that made the entirety of GW "unbalanced"(as many people seem to act like). Also, the fact that they DID attend to problems doesn't jive with the accusations that people make about ANET always completely ignoring us (which tends to go hand in hand with the expressions of disappointment as to why the imbalances happened).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

But now that's bringing up more of a point: If ANet cared so heavily about PvE balance in the past, why not now?

Maybe they learned that all the "balance" that made the game more challenging was contradictory to what the actual majority wanted. (remember when they talked about removing the frustration factor when they lowered the afflicted explosion & aoe scatter?) Which goes back to my point that the forum's voice may be an illusion. I only know they have talk about ways they've received feedback that have nothing to do with the forum, but I don't work there. I suspect that the SR spirit changes were made to shut people up an nothing more (izzy at one point said something about the data they collected from spirit death energy and that it's wasn't significant) but in truth, I don't know what goes on over there. None of this balance seems is as simple as we all pretend.

blurmedia · Jun 13, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

It's long so it must be good right.

Now lift my unreasoned ban from irc :<

Clarissa F · Jun 13, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by antialias02

I like the game ANet made, and I'm sure I'll like the game ANet will make. You guys can postulate and pontificate all you want about what ArenaNet "should do," because clearly everyone who plays the game has "the answer to the problem." And only people who frequent forums at all even think there's a problem to be solved.

8 out of 10 of my friends who play Guild Wars could care less about Guru or GWO, and they continue to think that, 3 years later, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the game.

I know, my post is already tl;dr (still nowhere near Avarre's diatribe), but suffice to say that coming on guru and posting, in effect, "GW sucks, try again" is going to solve absolutely nothing, no matter how important you think you are or how long of a post you write.

This entire thread is content that people have been repeating for the past 6 months. There is nothing here that hasn't been beaten to death already, here or in GWO or QQ. ArenaNet knows what you think.

Nice block of text, though. Great for decoration and appearances, and for the community to pat itself on the back and tell itself what a fantastic job it's doing of telling ArenaNet how to do its job.

Could think of a million things to say, but... just.. well..

PM me if you want to show that fortitude face to face. Being a prick on a site, when most others manage to give their points in a courteous manner...
you have no balls, boy.

I'm done with this shit.

Zorian Direspell · Jun 13, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

/signed.

I've played a lot of games in my life (thankfully fewer now) and I've got to say that none have ever disappointed me as much as Guild Wars. Not even that god awful Diablo II clone, Sacred. I've gotten tired of enjoying playing the game, then not enjoying it, then enjoying it again, to once again not enjoying it ... frequent undesired changes do not make me a happy player. I don't have the time to relearn a bunch of skills, or worse, grind for them (like Ursan). I do know that killing this game off wasn't the best option if A-net wanted to convince players to move onto GW2 ... I'm thoroughly convinced not to buy it now myself. Once bitten, fool me once, and all that.

lyra_song · Jun 13, 2008, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Darksun, the points you bring up about the "Old Guild Wars" being PvE imbalanced is true.

But the changes Anet has done to attempt to balance it, such as the Minion limit, the SR tweak, AOE tweak, etc. are NOT contradictory to the "Skill > Time" design.

Those changes improve or change the game but maintained its design integrity.

In fact changes like removing the refund points for attribute adjustment, and overall changes to the PvP only characters continue this design.

Ursan, Pve skills, and the like, however, are contradictory to this original design.

Kashrlyyk · Jun 13, 2008, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

....
So saying that is true, only one of two situations is possible for Guild Wars 2:

1. Guild Wars 2 starts off "bad" because Anet wanted the franchise to go that direction.

2. Guild Wars 2 starts off "good" but changes to "bad" because Anet has a history of doing that (called Guild Wars 1).

I see no other option at the moment.

3. Guild Wars 2 starts off "good" and stays "good", but the perception of the players change. And instead of letting the game go, they cry a river.

garethporlest18 · Jun 13, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

3. Guild Wars 3 starts off "good" and stays "good", but the perception of the players change. And instead of letting the game go, they cry a river.

I wouldn't agree with starts off good and stays good at all..but you mean the view of ANet changes, not the perception of players. They're the ones that changed their game to be more generic, not the players. Well they did listen to the players, but I sure as hell wasn't asking for anything we've gotten that shows me they've changed their view from 3 years ago.

Furthermore I don't see anyone crying a river, I see people that care about where the game goes and how it used to be trying to stand up for it. You might see it that way, but that would be your own tunnel vision.

samifly · Jun 13, 2008, 04:55 AM // 04:55

No one is saying that "old" guild wars didn't have problems. They had been mostly fixed without causing the game to lose its unique identity. Anet continuing to ignore obvious problems with game balance like ursan show a lack of care for game balance and their "visionary" early ideas which worked (obviously, with 3+ million copies sold before GW went down the tube).

C2K · Jun 13, 2008, 05:24 AM // 05:24

/signed

I don't know why we haven't seen a monster with a shock axe bar or even a boonprot bar on a monster. I know Boon prot is not really a competative build in PvP anymore, but if they can get a few monsters running it, that could be a tough fight.

Fionn Falaich · Jun 13, 2008, 05:28 AM // 05:28

/signed and 100% in support for Avarre's post(s).

Certainly, people may have different opinions, but I have little use for the grind of Nightfall titles (although otherwise it was a largely well-done game, DOA aside), and I have almost no use for EotN. What they introduced (especially the PvE skills, or at least most of them, and the title grinds) certainly seem to be geared towards dumbing down the game and, quite honestly, "make work" - providing something to keep people occupied until GW2. I don't think that's even disputed, or at least I hope not.

In and of itself, that's fine, and anyone who wants to do that is free to do so, except, as Avarre so eloquently described, they did so at the expense of the original concept of the game and of the original and/or long-term player base. That's the shame of it. It doesn't necessarily mean that GW2 will adopt the same ideas or follow the same path. In fact, I doubt that it will (at least, I hope that it won't) - something implemented to kill time is not the same thing as what we all (or most) hope is a new and innovative game. But it makes one pause to consider whether that will be the case. I, for one, am not ready to throw in the towel on GW2 yet, and I'm looking forward to a great product from ANet. As Avarre suggests, I'm hoping that the last year or so has been a learning experience for all involved. *keeps fingers crossed*

pumpkin pie · Jun 13, 2008, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

/signed

I don't know why we haven't seen a monster with a shock axe bar or even a boonprot bar on a monster. I know Boon prot is not really a competative build in PvP anymore, but if they can get a few monsters running it, that could be a tough fight.

maybe they cannot make AI that use divine boon "smoothly", like my monk Heros, sometime one have to constantly "force" them to use it??

Red Sonya · Jun 13, 2008, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airstu

Here is some more certainty

SOME PLAYERS LIKE WHAT ANET IS DOING

You can close the thread now, I think its all been covered

I'd like to change your statement a little if I may Airstu?

SOME players don't like what Anet is doing!

MOST players LIKE WHAT ANET IS DOING!

That's the bottom line. Anet had to do something to give the newer players the ability to get through ALL the content since most of the OLD veteran experienced players were set in one part of the content farming their lil eyes out. lol The best thing they could do and make it fair was to input a lil grind into the game so the new players couldn't just rush through the content with the NEW/IMPROVED pve only skills like Ursans Blessing and Save yourselves. With the grind to get these skills for new players it comes out to about the same time most of us veterans spent to get to where we are now.

It balanced out and the new players are happy and the old players are being "grumpy old men" cause they don't think it's fair that EVERYONE can play and be at the same place they are.

They whine about challenge is gone, but, it's not. You can make the game as challenging as you want to. What other people do has no bearing on how challenging you can make the game for yourself. You could play that you must buy all the armors as you get to them instead of running to Droks or getting rides to Consolate docks when you are level 1 to get the highest armor stats in the game. Same for gear you could play that you can't have anything or use anything you haven't discovered for yourself, meaning no buying everything you need at level 1 from other players or even decking out your heroes in the best gear and runes.

Also, everyone isn't using UB in every single place in the game. I get into pugs when I want to and the majority of pugs that I see that want UB are only in the upper elite areas of the game. If a group of people want to have an easy run of the upper elite areas that is THEIR choice not other players like the whinning older vets who don't like change.

The obvious answer to every game is "you can't please all the people all of the time so it's best to please the most people who buy your product as much as you can." Veterans or bored people will leave anyways. People were leaving GW's even before UB or the PVE/PVP split. I see no reason to now try to lay all the blame on UB or PVE/PVP split or even grinding (which for the majority of chapters is OPTIONAL). Everyone has their boring point and every person has their line of allowance of what they want a game to do for them. I say if you don't like it, leave it, go play something else. We've all seen that Anet has a design decision and the game is going in THEIR direction not each individual players own personal direction they THINK it should go.

I also think Anets design decisions have moved a lot more players to PVP especially since the Zashien keys came about. I play and enjoy PVP a lot more now since I not only have chances to get vanity items, but, I also make easy money (selling amber/jadite) as well. It's nothing for me to make 100k a week now just playing PVP if I want to by selling my keys instead of using them. Get 20 Zashien keys and sell em for 100k had one guy give me 100k for just 10 of them.

So, the game is alive and well and doing fine. The whinners will of course always whine. When the game moves in a direction certain players don't like or agree with of course there's going to be a handful that whines. Count them up here though out of 5 million copies sold how many whinners are here whinning? 100? lol that's hardly a poll of people that Anet should be concerned about.

It's what's in the game that GAME DATA that Anet should be concerned about and mostly that. How many people are playing, how many are leaving per day, how many are coming back that left, how fast is the population dwindling, How many new players are joining per day? None of us have those figures so to say anything has such an adverse effect on the game on these kinds of forums is rediculous.